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11/07/2011

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Lameen

ažə́vu 'hair': perhaps cp. Niger Tuareg ǎzag, ǎzaw "poil." But then I guess you'd expect an h...

yəndíma: yeah, that's a verb; the final -a suffix is the usual Awjila/Siwa "perfect", which among other uses in Siwi marks "while/having..." subordinate clauses.

kato

phoenix, i must say, this is quite a fun exercise. keep it up.

iddahwár: ELA īdahwar 'to take a tour, to walk around'

iṭúg: this vb. means 'to reach, to get to' in ELA. īṭugg (geminate g)
why does the g make you doubt Ar. origin? all Libyan dialects now have g < q. that some Ar. loans in Awjili preserve q is a matter for further study.

ittawíyel: ELA yetwayyel 'to be dumbfounded, to wonder at'. I'm wondering about the semantic categories now, of Libyan Ar. loans in Awjili. Verbs with senses such as this and iddahwár don't seem like likely loan candidates...?

bulbul

iddahwár 'to go around': Looks very much like a derivation of the root DWR = "turn et al." which in (at least) Moroccan can also mean "to wander, to roam" even in the first stem (dar - idur). As for the morphophonology, well, that's another story. Perhaps the second stem - dawwar - with some phonological ... something?
Interestingly enough, in Andalusian Arabic, derivations from this root are attested (in Pedro de Alcalá's glossary at least) with the consonant cluster -gw- for original -ww- (nidaguar < nidawwar, which I'd say is pretty close to iddahwár), but Corriente insists that [g] as a phoneme only occurs in borrowings from Romance and Berber. Curiouser and curiouser...

PhoeniX

Hahaha. Brain meltdown. I've been translating perfects with the -a perfect several texts long now, and now I suddenly forget about that suffix...

Haven't figured out when -a is used and when it isn't in Aujila though.

PhoeniX

"phoenix, i must say, this is quite a fun exercise. keep it up."

Thanks! I will, there are 15 texts in total, I plan to put them all up eventually. There might be some longer periods between me putting them up now though, because I'm getting to the longer texts now.

"why does the g make you doubt Ar. origin? all Libyan dialects now have g < q. that some Ar. loans in Awjili preserve q is a matter for further study."

I said it because Aujili seemed to retain q yes. But here we have a nice example of a g for q!

ELA. īṭugg < Originally from ṭāqa 'to be able, bi in a position; to be able to bear or stand'?

"I'm wondering about the semantic categories now, of Libyan Ar. loans in Awjili. Verbs with senses such as this and iddahwár don't seem like likely loan candidates...?"

Well, as you can see, not a single sentence in Aujila Berber seems to get away without an Arabic loan. When loaning and bilingualism is this intensive, it's hard to be surprised of any type of loan anymore.

PhoeniX

"Interestingly enough, in Andalusian Arabic, derivations from this root are attested (in Pedro de Alcalá's glossary at least) with the consonant cluster -gw- for original -ww- (nidaguar < nidawwar, which I'd say is pretty close to iddahwár), but Corriente insists that [g] as a phoneme only occurs in borrowings from Romance and Berber. Curiouser and curiouser..."

Since Spanish lacks a -w- sounds, let alone -ww- sound, I'd be incredibly surprised if they wouldn't write it with -gu-.

Spanish Guillermo < Germanic Wilhelm. I know more example of this in French:
Guarder < Ward
Gaufre < Waffle

It's just the next best option if you lack a phoneme -w- (and a grapheme for that matter) all together.

bulbul

Since Spanish lacks a -w- sounds, let alone -ww- sound, I'd be incredibly surprised if they wouldn't write it with -gu-.
Not entirely true, Spanish has plenty of diphtongs with [w] as the initial component, e.g. fuego, cuadro...
And most importantly, elsewhere, Alcalá is using plain old 'u' for 'w'.

Spanish Guillermo < Germanic Wilhelm
And yet, 'Guillermo' is not pronounced with an initial [w], but with a [g].

PhoeniX

"And most importantly, elsewhere, Alcalá is using plain old 'u' for 'w'."

Okay, in that case, it's indeed surprising.

"And yet, 'Guillermo' is not pronounced with an initial [w], but with a [g]."

Yeah it's both a combination of not having the distinction and maybe not even hearing the dinstinction.

kato

phoenix: on ELA. īṭugg < Originally from ṭāqa 'to be able, bi in a position; to be able to bear or stand'?

I'm not sure about that. how would you explain both the loss of ā and geminating of g? and the sense doesn't seem quite there.

bulbul

maybe not even hearing the dinstinction.
Which distinction would that be, the one between [g] and [w]?
I can't be quite sure without a real good look, but it would seem Alcalá sometimes transcribes a single [w] as 'u' (e.g. béul = "urine" < BWL), sometimes as 'v' (e.g. navfí = "I am faithful" < WFY) and sometimes as 'gu' (e.g. netguaffáq = "I agree"). Geminated [w] and word-initial [w], however, are almost always written as 'gu', i.e. nidaguar or guát = "time" < WQT). That intervocalic position I can't explain, but as for the word-initial, Pountain's "History of the Spanish Language Through Texts" (p. 201) documents a regional phenomenon where word-initial [w] or [bw] / [βw] - as in 'vueltas' = "rounds, turns" - would be 'reinforced' (his word) by a velar consonant, i.e. [g], hence "gueltas".
In any case, we still haven't resolved the issue of the the etymology of iddahwár. kato, Lameen, any thoughts?

PhoeniX

"phoenix: on ELA. īṭugg < Originally from ṭāqa 'to be able, bi in a position; to be able to bear or stand'?

I'm not sure about that. how would you explain both the loss of ā and geminating of g? and the sense doesn't seem quite there."

Me neither. I wonder if this word is found at all in Classical Arabic then.

ṭaqqa 'to crack, pop' comes nowhere near semantically.

To bulbul:
"Which distinction would that be, the one between [g] and [w]?"

Yes that's what I meant, but it seems like Alcalá at least did pretty good attempts at distinguishing g and w, and used other graphemes to write it. Which indeed makes a 'gu' popping up for geminated [w] quite fascinating.

"In any case, we still haven't resolved the issue of the the etymology of iddahwár. kato, Lameen, any thoughts?"

Kato pointed out: "ELA īdahwar 'to take a tour, to walk around'"

Where that word comes from though, I don't know. I doubt it's from the root DWR. /h/ is not a native phoneme to Berber, so if it shows up in a word, it should definitely mean something. But the root DHWR in classical Arabic doesn't mesh that well semantically.

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